After 57 years in the Maryland General Assembly and Congress, Sen. Ben Cardin retires in January. This is another in a series of exit interviews with the long-serving Democrat from Baltimore and chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. We spoke a week after Election Day.

Dan Rodricks: First, your reaction to the election of Donald Trump to another term as president.

Ben Cardin: I think it’s very damaging to our country. It’s damaging to the free world. U.S. leadership is not going to be what we need to deal with the fight against autocratic regimes or for the climate agenda or the migration issues. The United States will not be in leadership, and that’s not good. On the domestic side, in regards to immigration, gun safety, the environment, a fair budget, it’s going to be very, very damaging to this country and we’ll pay a heavy price. … Now, having said that, if I could pick any place in the world to live, I’ll pick the United States of America. I think we’ll get through this. I know we’ll get through this. Our democratic institutions will survive. I think you’ll see courage develop in places that you did not expect, including in Congress and the courts, and that will act as a check and balance. I believe activism, in order to protect our values, is more important than ever. And you’re going to see that activism in this country to protect our rights. So I have optimism about America’s future.

DR: I wish I could share that optimism. Trump is a felon who sparked an insurrection against Congress, and there’s a litany of other disturbing things I could say about him, all of which were well known. Some 76 million Americans gave him a thumbs-up. What does the rule of law mean now? What does ‘no man above the law’ mean now? It apparently doesn’t matter to people.

BC: I can’t answer that. There’s no answer to that. I share those same sentiments.

DR: Do you have grandchildren?

BC: Yes. I have two, but one is 24, and one is 21.

DR: That’s the next generation. When it comes to climate and when it comes to setting an example for leadership in America, to me this election marks a terrible retreat from responsibility to the next generation.

BC: My grandchildren are both pretty independent and both are mortified by the results of this election for the reasons you just stated. I’m proud of their judgment. I think the next generations are going to have to figure out a way to get America back on track. I remember when Ronald Reagan was elected president [in 1980]. I thought that was the end of democracy as we knew it, or our values. But that [election] was understandable: People thought we had gone too far on the side of government and wanted to pull back on government. That I can understand. What I can’t understand is electing a person who is just morally unfit to become president of the United States. That’s hard to accept.

DR: Maryland stayed blue, electing three new members of the House, all Democrats. Your successor in the Senate will be Angela Alsobrooks, also a Democrat.

BC: I’m very pleased that [she] will have my seat in the Senate. It makes me feel a lot better, knowing that. I’m glad … the abortion issues were protected in our constitution. We live in a state that went overwhelmingly for Kamala Harris for president. But make no mistake, we’re going to be in a very difficult place after the next four years.

DR: What’s your advice to Alsobrooks?

BC: Well, I’ve told her, first of all, she needs to form friendships in the Senate on both sides of the aisle. She needs to decide where she really wants to concentrate her attention. At least initially there’s unfinished work we’ve got to get done in Maryland — on the environment and Chesapeake Bay, on the Key Bridge, on the [new] FBI headquarters. I think she showed during the campaign that she has the right focus and values and I think she has all the talent that you could ask for. So I think she could do just fine. But I will be there. If she seeks my advice — and she has, she calls me frequently — I’ll have a chance to help her as she transitions into the Senate.

DR: When you first came into Congress, it was 1987, a few years before Newt Gingrich came along and the polarization really got strong. It seems much worse now.

BC: No question about it. The major question is: How strong will the Republican leadership in Congress be to preserve the traditional independence of the Senate? And I can’t answer that question because Trump has already said, ‘We’re not going to go through the time-consuming process of confirmation of my nominees. I expect that the Senate will follow everything I want them to do …’ So it is true that the Congress is much more divided on partisan lines than when I started. But we also still have the pride in the independence of the legislative branch. How will that be affected by a second term of the Trump presidency? That story has not been written yet. And I still hold out that there’ll be courage by the leadership of the Senate and by the courts to act as a check and balance against what Donald Trump wants to do.

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