Ben Cardin, Maryland’s senior senator and former chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, chose not to run for re-election, opting to retire after serving in Congress since 1987. In this, the first in a series of exit interviews, Cardin, a Democrat, talks about U.S. foreign policy and the nation’s standing as a democracy and global power. The interview was edited for clarity and brevity.

DR: You just came from meetings with foreign leaders during the NATO summit. Donald Trump is the Republican nominee for president again. He’s threatened to pull the U.S. out of NATO, force Ukraine to cede land to Russia, and he’s seen as an admirer of the Russian president, Vladimir Putin. What do you hear from our allies in Europe?

BC: There is real concern about Donald Trump, make no mistake about it, real concern as to whether he will appreciate the importance of the trans-Atlantic partnership of NATO, stand up to Putin and [President Xi Jinping of China], Iran and North Korea. There has been a consolidation of those authoritarian regimes. There is a clear indication that Russia could not be as effective right now in its campaign in Ukraine if it were not for China. So there is this coalition of authoritarian regimes that are transactional in their foreign policy, using force and corruption to achieve their objectives. And the Democratic states need to be strategic in dealing with it. … The stakes could not be higher. There is concern among our Western partners [about] Trump. They look at him [and see] a transactional guy, not a values guy; he doesn’t base his foreign policy on values. That seems more like what Putin does, what Xi does. It sounds like he’s more comfortable on the authoritarian side than on the democratic side.

DR: There’s a lot of uncertainty as to whether, if Trump’s elected again, the U.S. will remain a democracy and a leader in supporting other democracies.

BC: The [U.S. allies] are not going to give up on America, but they’re going to be hedging their bets. …Hungary, for example, we thought would become a great democratic state. It’s not.

DR: It’s an autocracy, and its prime minister, Viktor Orban, recently made nice with Trump at Mar-a-Lago.

BC: We still have this military strategic partnership with Hungary, and they are a decent ally in NATO. They’re not the best, but they’re not the worst. But they are certainly very much in the camp of Putin on transactional [foreign policy]. The lesson from all this is that [allies] look at [the U.S.] and say, ‘It might turn out to be something like a Hungary, or a Turkey.’ … And that could lead to a pathway for authoritarian regimes to weaken the security alliances we have, and it could mean Ukraine could fall. And if Ukraine falls … and believe me, the Europeans are really focused on Ukraine. So there’s genuine concern.

DR: Still, for the most part, people regard us as a strong liberal democracy. But in recent years that stature has been diminished – hasn’t it? – by Trump, a man who tried to stop the peaceful transfer of power after he lost the 2020 election.

BC: Your observations are accurate. But remember, there’s only one United States. There is no other country that can take our place. So, it’s not like they say, ‘OK, we’ll go to the [United Kingdom], they’ll fill the gap.’ There’s no other country in the world that can fill the leadership that the United States fills for the Western alliances. And we are the country of choice, whether it’s Japan or Egypt or Armenia. Japan is a very strong democratic country with a strong economy. Armenia is struggling to find its roots in democracy. Egypt does everything transactional, but thinks the better side is with the U.S rather than Russia. But they’re all going to hedge their bets – every one of them, including Japan. They’re going to hedge their bets because they’re not sure America is going to be there, with Donald Trump, in the same capacity we are there today.

DR: And that means?

BC: That means they establish relationships with China. Not so much with Russia, but with China. And that’s not good at all for America. That’s not good at all for the free world. So, yes, there is genuine concern that America will not be able to fulfill that role of being the [power] to prevent the erosion to authoritarian machines.

DR: What do you say to Americans who want a more isolationist U.S., spending less in aid to, for instance, Ukraine?

BC: I tell them that we’ve seen this movie before. Russia’s ambitions are well beyond Ukraine. We have fought two world wars. Do we want to fight a third world war with American soldiers in Europe? And it’s a lot easier for us to give them the financial support, military support that they need through equipment than to send our soldiers over to Europe to fight another world war, because that’s what it’s about. It will happen. War is not inevitable. We have to make sure it doesn’t happen, and that’s why we’re involved in this. And that’s the reason NATO was formed. That’s the reason why the transatlantic partnership was so important. We cannot allow a country by force to change the boundaries of Europe.